Management Fundamentals with Kelly Vaughn

Brian Rinaldi: [00:00:00] Oh, and we’re live. And I think Erin has actually got a functional microphone now, Erin.

Erin Mikail Staples: Maybe we’ll see. Did it change the 30 seconds between backstage and here?

Brian Rinaldi: Maybe. No, it sounds fine right now. It’s it’s, it’s, it’s moderately decent. Um, welcome everybody. Thank you for joining us for another episode of dev relish.

The, we are YouTube’s top show that combines dev rel. I mean, nobody else is really doing it. I mean,

Erin Mikail Staples: no one else. But honestly, I will take it. That’s exactly how you win elections in some countries, is you’re just one out of one. So, if it’s fair in politics It’s fair in my book too, but that’s a very wide range these days

Brian Rinaldi: I mean, I I can’t believe people haven’t like the rest of the world hasn’t caught on to the deep connection between pickles and devrel Oh rude rude But [00:01:00] uh Well, thanks everybody for joining.

Um, we’ve got kelly vaughn with us today. We’re um, So we’re going to be talking about well Your role at Spot AI. We’re going to be talking about like management fundamentals. We’re going to be talking about what it takes to be a Dev, like is a DevRel. Does a DevRel have to actually have a DevRel title?

Can you be DevRel ish and not even be in the DevRel role? Um, yeah, all those fun things. So it should be great conversation. Welcome Kelly.

Kelly Vaughn: Thanks for having me. If you didn’t notice in the 30 seconds I was back, I actually put my headline in there, so I’m not a mysterious Kelly Vaughn. You know which Kelly Vaughn I am.

Erin Mikail Staples: Yeah. I mean, like, how many Kelly Vaughns are there on the internet?

Kelly Vaughn: Because Um, actually, things that I know, uh, there was somebody who played in one of the Batman movies, uh, who’s also name is Kelly Vaughn, and then 30 minutes from me, there’s a dentist named Kelly Vaughn. And I know this because I almost went to that dentist just so I could say, like, yes, my name is Kelly.

I’m like, no, no, [00:02:00] like, who’s like, what’s the name of your dentist? Anyway, I was going to have fun with it. And I decided to. Not drive 30 minutes.

Erin Mikail Staples: Fun fact. Um, that actually is a reason that my husband is good friends with the former creative director of Ogilvy because the former creative director of Ogilvy is Joe Staples and he got really drunk in a hotel room and LinkedIn requested him and said, you should hire me because we have the same name six years ago.

I love that. Now they text regularly, talk about streetwear and office supplies. So. You know, career advice starts here. But yeah.

Brian Rinaldi: So, so is the advice to change your, like, look up who the hiring manager is? Change your name. Change your

Erin Mikail Staples: name. Yep.

Brian Rinaldi: Okay.

Erin Mikail Staples: Send a drunken LinkedIn request. That’s it.

Brian Rinaldi: Yeah. I mean, nothing else is working right now for folks.

I know like in DevRel and in engineering in general, like it’s, it’s, it’s bad days right now. Um, [00:03:00] DevRel, especially. Oh my God. I feel bad. Like it’s really, really rough out there. I know. I don’t know if there’s any folks in the audience who were like looking for, for jobs, but, um, I know it’s bad. It’s

Erin Mikail Staples: interesting though, also, because the skills that I think, like, I look back at, like, I mean, my first job I got in DevRel was an accident, like many other DevRels.

Um, I actually, before I was in DevRel, I actually, that’s how I met Kelly, was before I was in DevRel and working in e comm. So, fun fact, um, Kelly and I think we’re actually at the Shopify Um, and then

Kelly Vaughn: I

Erin Mikail Staples: ended up working for an agency that a couple of agencies that worked with that’s a lot of the original Netlify crew and Kelly and I was like, I’m just slowly product manager here and I think I want to do this tech thing and then I actually interviewed Kelly for a graduate school project and then we were like, I guess we’re friends now at the end.

That’s it. That was it. You open the door. And then we just hang out and our husbands talk about [00:04:00] cars together.

Kelly Vaughn: And you supply me with an unlimited supply of sausage. so much.

Erin Mikail Staples: Yeah, these are these are engineering things as well. Flashback. I think that actually also when we start the step relish show, we were like, okay, there’s several in there.

There’s all the ish. And I think the issue is actually what people are getting hired for these days. Or I actually know a few DevRels that are looking to leave their DevRel job because they’re like, I can make more money doing the DevRel shit on my side and just be a product manager or an engineer. And so they’re actually stealing.

I’ve seen, I know two people who have stolen, stolen. Engineering folks jobs because they’re like, look, I have the chops in engineering, but I just don’t want to show myself on the Internet for a company and I’d rather go be an engineer.

Kelly Vaughn: Yeah. And there’s a, there’s a huge crossover between Deverell and product management for sure.

Brian Rinaldi: It’s yeah, I

Erin Mikail Staples: think it’s something that it’s been more noticed. Like I get in [00:05:00] more, the more senior I’ve gotten in Deverell, the more years it’s been, the more that’s been a favor on my resume than like a hindrance. Like when I first started, they were like, what do you product manager? I want to be in the engineering team for it.

Get lost. Like, what are you going to do? Sign me Jira tickets. And I’m like, no, I actually don’t want to babysit engineers anymore. So like, that’s why I’m not trying to be in product

Kelly Vaughn: management. You know why that is though? It’s because they’re looking at engineers now to have product experience because product managers or folks who spend time in product really understand the business.

Case behind everything. And as we move into this world, we’re like, we’re working in a lot more technical space. A lot of us tend to work in a lot more technical space and your customer, you need to be able to relay a lot of information to customers that tends to be a little bit more, more technical. And in doing so you’re able to like have that product experience makes your life so much easier as an engineer.

So I, I’m constantly seeing like, uh, like job listings for engineers where expecting you to have like that product mindset. [00:06:00]

Brian Rinaldi: Yeah, I think that’s, that’s definitely, I think that that’s definitely helpful nowadays. And I also think like, like your point that a lot of people are in this, are kind of moving out of DevRel and into other types of roles, I think part of that’s just the availability of DevRel jobs.

Like there’s not a lot of them right now. The competition is, is really, really stiff for, for those roles. I mean, I think that’s true in general across, but it’s. Probably more true in DevRel, which, because Dev, a lot of DevRel teams end up falling in marketing, right? That’s kind of the most common place I’ve seen them.

I’ve seen them in product, I’ve seen them in different places, but usually end up in marketing. And I always feel like having been through a numerous of these ups and downs in technology over 25 plus years I’ve been doing this stuff. Um, I always find the first thing companies do is they cut down like trim marketing, they cut marketing back heavily.[00:07:00]

Um, and then, you know, because it’s hard to cut back engineering cause then you’re not going to hit your, your targets for, you know, all the things you want to release, but I can cut marketing and not feel immediate pain. Um, and then I’ll, and then a year from now, they’ll end up being like, Hey, what happened to our funnel?

Our funnel is like dried up. And, and people also seem to like hate us now and think we’re terrible. And, you know, like, and because like the, you know, opinions of our, of our company have gone in the toilet. Like what happened? Oh yeah, we don’t have marketing anymore. Um, so, and then it, then it comes back, they ramp up too much.

And we repeat the cycle.

Kelly Vaughn: Mm hmm.

Brian Rinaldi: Um, yeah.

Kelly Vaughn: A lot of it is long tail, and that’s half the problem. Like, if you don’t see the immediate ROI, you’re like, well, I’m not getting value out of this.

Brian Rinaldi: Yeah, for sure. And this is

Erin Mikail Staples: why, and actually, so this is something I recently started stealing from, I started it in my last job, um, when I changed [00:08:00] managers and then I made a really intentional purpose to make sure that I did it off the gate this job.

And it’s a trick I actually learned from journalism world because we all know how relevant my journalism degree is to the day to day work that I do. But! In the journalism world, it was always advocated in my master’s degree. They were like, if you’re going to move into a leadership position and you want to keep, because journalism is, as you know, a very stable and well paid industry jokes, jokes.

Um, but one of the things they said, if you’re moving into a management role or a leadership role in the newsroom, make sure that you don’t lose empathy for the journalist and prove that you still can have you flex those muscles. So they always encouraged first time editors, directors, or anytime that you’re moving onto that product side in a newsroom.

You still write the occasional publication and still write the occasional article because you can prove to everybody there that you can still do the work. And I think I might, I started at lunch sharply. I did it here and it was now my new thing is watch. I can still ship production [00:09:00] quality code and having just a simple PR merged, even if it’s something little, it’s like.

You can’t fight me because I technically contributed.

Kelly Vaughn: I just contributed. I opened one PR at Spot the entire time I’ve been here. I think I’ve told you about this. So it’s just renaming, uh, Office 365 to Microsoft 365. That was the extent of my code contribution. Am I capable of doing so? Yes. Am I too busy?

Also, yes.

Brian Rinaldi: Yeah. I had, I had like one time in, when I was like an engineer, not a, not a DevRel, I, one of my tasks like was to basically change one word throughout this entire site, um, which, um, I can’t remember what the word was, but I had a whole Funny thing about it. It was the most boring job I’ve ever had as an engineer, by the way, and I don’t mean just that.

I mean, in general, that job was, that’s the kind of tasks I get. I’d go to my boss. I’m like, listen, I’m super bored. I’ve got [00:10:00] nothing to do. Like all these things are super easy. He’s like, Oh, I’ve got this big project that’s going to take two weeks. He’d hand it to me. And I I’d like write some script and have it done.

I’m like an I’m like, Hey, I’m done. Wait, you know, but yeah,

Kelly Vaughn: um,

Brian Rinaldi: yeah. So I, I would be an expert at making PR merges for word changes. It’s, it’s kind of my, it’s like

Erin Mikail Staples: someone, I don’t remember the company. They don’t no longer exist. I think they got acquired by someone. There’s an open source projects that I made a contribution to mostly because they had a typo on their docs page.

And I was like, I’ve seen this like five times. I’m going to just fix it real quick. And they sent me, they were like, Oh my goodness. When they got acquired, they sent me a care package. And it’s like, thank you so much for being part of our journey. And I’m like,

you’re so

Kelly Vaughn: welcome. You did so good.

Brian Rinaldi: [00:11:00] I mean, I got into DevRel, by the way, to get away from doing production code. Yeah,

Kelly Vaughn: I got into management for the same reason.

Brian Rinaldi: I

Kelly Vaughn: dabble at this point, like that’s, you know, side projects and whatnot when I do have time to do so. Um, but that’s just, uh, that’s where I, I’m better off spending my time.

So I think

Brian Rinaldi: like, so on that note actually, like we didn’t even really, we kind of skipped introductions. We didn’t talk about like, you know, what you do where, where, you know, you’re, we usually talk with people about their career, career trajectory into derel, but obviously you’re director of engineering. So like, tell us about your, how you got there and, and even a little bit of your perspective on, on, um.

Like how these kind of dev rel ish aspects have fit into your, your roles.

Kelly Vaughn: Yeah. Um, so it starts all the way back when I was 11 years old, when I taught myself how to code, [00:12:00] um, from a book called HTML goodies. Um, I had my own, um, Account on Neopets and I wanted to make my, my guild pretty and in order to do so, I needed to learn how to code.

So my dad bought me that book. Um, I started freelancing when I was 14 years old. Um, the first project I ever did was actually an online catalog. Um, not e commerce because this was a long time ago. I’m not going to put years to this one. Um, and I was paid a t shirt. It was like an extra large and I’m like the child so I give it to me in this thing.

Um, and then I continue to freelance all through, uh, high school, undergrad, grad school. Um, I have a tendency to say that I don’t want to do a thing and then I end up doing it anyway. Like that’s the, that is like. How I summarized my career, so I never wanted to go into, uh, software engineering as a career because if I had, if I was going to do it and I had to do it, I was going to hate it.

So I have three degrees from University of Georgia, go dogs, [00:13:00] um, uh, bachelor of psychology and then two master’s degrees in public health and clinical social work. Um, basically I’m a trained therapist. And all through undergrad and grad school, I’m still coding, uh, in 2014, uh, I happened to stumble upon a tweet from somebody saying, Hey, I need an extra set of hands for some freelance work.

And I’m like, I’m a poor college student, like sign me up. And so he sent me WordPress sites. And, um, at some point he’s like, Hey, I have this site. It’s on a platform called Shopify. Um, I know you’ve never used it before, but do you want to explore it and like, take on this project? I’m like, yeah, sure. That sounds great.

Loved it immediately, which is funny, you know, over 10 years ago, because the platform was in such an infancy state, it was learning liquid, but also like you have to code directly into the code editor, like there was no, nothing. Um, and so the Shopify partner program, the experts program had recently launched and I was able to become a Shopify expert, be one of the first [00:14:00] in the Southeast.

Uh, because, uh, you had to launch five stores. And so I made a deal with the guy I was getting freelance work from. I was like. Pay me less money. Let me sign up these, uh, these stores under my account. And then we both become experts. We’re going to get even more work and it worked. Um, basically I, when I graduated from, from grad school, I started a fellowship at the centers for disease control and prevention, uh, as a, uh, like an informatics fellow and they required somebody who had their master’s in public health, who also knew how to code.

And two weeks into the fellowship, they’re like, so you are the only applicant and I’m like, Great. Good confidence booster. Love that. Uh, so, um, I was like balling on the, uh, fellowship, uh, stipend of 45, 000 a year. Also making more freelancing during this time. So I’m like, why am I doing both of these things?

Let me just go freelance. And so when I could get on my husband’s health insurance, after we got married, I [00:15:00] left the fellowship program, went full time on my own. So this is 2015. Uh, in 2016, uh, MailChimp featured me as A freelance success story. So this is like in my wins folder forever. Um, and in this, in this article, in this interview, I said, I never want to start an agency because I want to always do like the fun freelance thing.

Not even a month later, I was like, I want to start an agency. Um, as I do. And so nine months later, uh, the tap room, uh, became an official thing. Uh, and so I rebranded to the tap room, grew that to about 25 people globally. Uh, COVID hits. And obviously a bunch of businesses needed to get online, um, really quickly.

And so we got really busy, really fast. Meanwhile, we’re also moving up market at the same time. And so time to close was increasing. And I burned myself out. I also kind of worked myself out of a job in 2021. And so I took a one month, um, sabbatical and as I do in this one month sabbatical where I’m supposed to be taking a [00:16:00] break, I co founded another company.

Uh, this one was venture backed. Uh, so we raised a small round in three, three weeks when, you know, people are like, Oh, you breathe, here’s some money, go build something. Um, and so I, uh, did that for a little while and then trying to do both of them at the same time was just naughty. Good idea. Shocker. You should not run two companies at the same time.

Uh, and finally, I was just like, I am so beyond burned out at this point that I need to stop. Um, and so I shut down my agency. I, uh, left my startup and I joined spot. All within a week of each other. Um, it was a very, very quick week in 2022. And so here I am almost three years later, uh, at spot as director of engineering.

I oversee product and engineering for, um, our video management system product. Um, and I’m also our it person and I also do all of our security stuff. So I’ve just submitted all of our documentation [00:17:00] for SOC two for the third time, and I am tired.

The end. There’s my life story.

Erin Mikail Staples: I was gonna say, there’s a lot of ish in that journey, like I think things you didn’t mention is you ran a pretty successful. It was like one of the top courses on made in. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um, also run a very popular newsletter, um, and have a decent social following on all of the platforms.

Um, I think that’s just important to call out because I think the reason that, like, if I can say, like, the reason that you’ve been probably so successful is something that, like, It’s the same reason that companies hired DevRel in many ways, um, is that like personal interaction and like being online in time where people don’t want to be online?

Kelly Vaughn: Being perpetually online. It is definitely, um, yeah, I’ve got a pretty large following on, uh, LinkedIn and the other site I no longer use. Um, and I do run a [00:18:00] course. On, uh, Maven called management fundamentals for tech leaders or management fundamentals for the modern leader. I rebranded it. I also have a self paced version of that course as well.

Um, if you don’t want to take it live or I don’t have a session that works for you, um, and yeah, I run a newsletter called the modern leader as well, where I talk about, you know, leadership principles and how, you know, how anybody can be a leader. It does not, you don’t have to be a manager to be a leader.

Brian Rinaldi: I like how she called your following on social decent. It’s decent.

Kelly Vaughn: I’ll take it. It’s

Brian Rinaldi: a decent following.

Kelly Vaughn: It’s always so funny because I don’t spend nearly as much time on social media as I did in like 2018, 2019 when my following just, you know, and so I just forget about it. I often just forget it’s there, and then somebody comes across my account, or like, one of my old tweets from 2018 goes viral, again.

And I start getting messages from people I know in person, or people from work, being like, [00:19:00] Uh, were you keeping a huge secret from us? Like, what is going on here? And I’m like, nope, I’m not keeping any secrets from you, that doesn’t exist. Just don’t, just, just close the tab, and just forget about it. I

Brian Rinaldi: would like to have an indecent following, that would be a lot more

Erin Mikail Staples: fun

Brian Rinaldi: though, don’t you

Erin Mikail Staples: think?

I mean, like, depending on like, I definitely have a few of my reddit accounts pop up for fighting in subreddits and arguing with people on the internet, so does that count as an indecent following? There we go, we’ll take it.

Brian Rinaldi: Actually, no, I take it back, Erin follows me, so I already have my indecent following.

I

Erin Mikail Staples: follow both of you, so you’re screwed, that’s what I mean. Perfect, take it. Um, but I think like, it’s interesting. Cause like, if you’re in a director of engineering, I don’t think in a director of engineering world, I don’t think they ask you like, what is your social account where I literally, when I was last, like in the interview process, I had people being like, do you [00:20:00] promise to use Twitter?

Because it was the time where people were starting to use Twitter. And I’m like, do you promise to like, why do you care about this so much? Or how companies be like, you’re on, you’re too political online. I’m like, well, then I’m not going to work here either then. But. And we don’t see, does that same critique even exist if you’re on the engineering side?

Kelly Vaughn: It’s, it, yes and no. It exists when you already have a large presence. Because I represent the company I work for and the company I work for represents me, whether I like it or not, this is part of having a large following and somebody sees, you know, my profile from some posts that I’ve made, they can see that where I work and therefore there is an affiliation that happens there, but it’s the same way if some, if something is posted on our, um, our company account and you go to view on like our page on the company LinkedIn and you can see like, I work there.

that association has also been made the reverse, that reverse way, which means like anything the [00:21:00] company posts, I am basically advocating for because of my presence and vice versa.

Brian Rinaldi: I would agree with that. I think that that’s even part of, um, you know, I am, I am a now, I guess there was this group last night.

Kind of taking a little tangent here. There’s a group last night that we have in here in Orlando They’re tech optimists and they come and they talk about tech optimism. It’s a whole thing. I guess I don’t know And i’m like I was going there to Cause I help run a lot of groups here and I just support them.

I don’t not a member and I just giving them access to the building. And then I’m like, yeah, I can’t join this group anyway. I’m a tech pessimist right now. Like, um, but I think, um, yeah, but I think it’s. But my point there is it really is important, like, because you do have that, that dual association. And unfortunately, a lot of these companies are doing things that it’s like, I don’t want my name associated with it.

Especially if you’re a dev rel, like you, [00:22:00] you’re, you’re there, like that is your public presence is like, is the company, um, and, and so the, the things they do can tarnish you as well.

Kelly Vaughn: Exactly. And, and a lot of companies, I mean, we’re, when it comes to marketing, company led branding. Doesn’t work the same way as it did a long time ago.

It is employee led branding for the company, which is why you see a lot more people posting individual stories. You know, you’re not going to be getting as much out of like the company saying here’s this great thing we built and you’re going to love it versus having an engineering. You know, engineer or an engineering leader post something saying like, here’s something our team, our team built, and we absolutely love it.

And here’s why you’ll like it as well. And then you see friends post about it, or you just see friend, your friends show up in the videos posted from the company, almost like a little behind the scenes thing. And it’s going to bring a lot more attention to the brand. That, that company led branding just, just doesn’t work anymore.

Brian Rinaldi: Which is, I guess, a good case for [00:23:00] if you are in DevRel and you want to go back towards like, you know, an engineering role or a leadership role or a product role or product marketing role, like those kind of things, I think all those are strengths you built in your DevRel career that can still benefit you in those kind of roles.

So I’d say like. Play ’em up when you talk to the company. Like not only can I code, but I can be a strong advocate for everything we built, you know, even as an engineer.

Erin Mikail Staples: Yeah. But I think also in that case, and Kelly, I don’t know if you had this, but I had to, my last two contracts, I was a media and making money in my comedy career when I applied for jobs.

And usually when you have your list of prior inventions, you don’t normally put down comedy. But because I pay taxes on it and I technically own the IP for it, I put down comedy and it came with a double edged sword. I have been asked to perform comedy for free at

Kelly Vaughn: a

Erin Mikail Staples: lot of conferences.

Kelly Vaughn: Oh, nope.

Erin Mikail Staples: Or I have been asked, and I mean, I, very [00:24:00] fortunately, like Launch Darkly actually sponsored one of my comedy shows.

It was great, but I got paid for it and we had to, we had wrote a separate agreement out and I had to get sign off from Gleegle. Because I was like, I, I can do this, but this is outside of my scope of work at my day job. Um, or like, I do expect compensation in some way, shape, form. Yeah. But I think going back, it’s like also having a manager that gets that is really important.

Like I’ve had, I’ve been politically active in my career. I did have a career in politics. I still am active in the Democratic Socialist group here in New York City. Very involved. Um, part of the Sunrise Project Movement. And I do like, you can look me up. There is political work on my work history. And it’s work that I’m proud of and some employers will not hire me because of it.

Yeah. I’ve had two companies that have been like, we, you’ve worked as a lobbyist. We will not hire you. And I’m like, okay, but I also, it can go both ways because my current manager also had a previous career in politics and also does get that system. So it’s, [00:25:00] there’s a little more vetting that has to go into that.

Kelly Vaughn: There is. And anytime you bring, I mean, anytime you bring politics into a conversation, there’s going to be some division that happens there. Um, but like, if your resume shows that you supported any particular candidate. Or a political party, there’s going to be bias naturally that occurs, whether you agree with it or not.

You know, if I see somebody who, you know, worked on like, like if I saw your resume, I’d be like, Oh, cool. We’re actually going to get along for a lot of reasons. But if I saw somebody who worked, like, let’s say they worked at a, on like the RNC, like campaign campaign or something like that, like I’m going to have a different feeling about that when I know like a job is a job is a job sometimes, but typically, you know.

Your political leaning does play into your everyday life. Like, that is just a, that, that is, that is human nature. We can’t, we can’t separate those two.

Erin Mikail Staples: I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing in many ways. Like, I think we, we, we, we really talk about this whole attitude. Um, I used to have a [00:26:00] friend who ran a podcast called Spill It, and it was on wage transparency.

And she would invite people on, and she’d be like, will you talk about your salary publicly? I want to know your total comp, and I want to know, like, your contracts from each five years. And you had to, the speakers would have to actually submit their offer letters. And it created these really great conversations.

I loved it. Um, shout out Tiffany. She’s now at Spotify crushing it, but really, I think it creates these like conversations that like, there’s a very different. Feel when it’s, we’re just honest about it versus sweeping it under the rug or under the table. Like, absolutely. I always tell companies like, um, you know, I was at, I do volunteer.

1 of the groups I work with is politically organized, politically, uh, political based organization. However, they do not. They’re nonpartisan. They’re on access to vote. Um, given the state of things that’s now become a partisan issue, but that’s a whole nother conversation. Um, and literally all they’re doing is increasing access to the polls and helping people understand when to register.

When is your last day of registration and helping [00:27:00] folks fact check things at the polls. And I had a company that was like, I know that you’re doing this and it’s nonpartisan, but like, We would really prefer, like, we don’t care that you do this, but make sure that you are not wearing any logos, any swag, any materials, or identifying yourself as an employee of our company while you’re doing this.

Yep. And I was like, okay. And that was

Brian Rinaldi: the 2020

Erin Mikail Staples: election.

Kelly Vaughn: Yep. That’s not surprising. I, and I, I see it, I see it kind of slipped through sometimes in, in some other, like what, uh, what some of the people are posting online that they don’t even recognize that they’re like, you know, they might, it might have employer branding on and they go to vote and they just take a picture because they’re proud of voting and that, that association has now been made.

Again, it’s, it’s innocuous. Like, it’s not meant to be something that’s harmful, but everything is partisan. Also, I appreciate the fact that we’re really leaning into the ish side of DevRel

Erin Mikail Staples: ish.

Brian Rinaldi: We always lean into the

Erin Mikail Staples: ish. Casual learning conversation. [00:28:00]

Brian Rinaldi: We haven’t gotten to the fermenting chapter

Erin Mikail Staples: yet.

Brian Rinaldi: But I do think it’s important for, like, DevRel folks, because, I mean, it They are very public by nature, like so, um, and oftentimes public, not just like, that’s part of what makes them good at their job is they, they’re out there, but they’re often out there with all sides of their lives, not just the job side of their lives.

And like, it is, it can follow you wherever you go. That being said, I mean. I, I think, you know, I always think it’s funny, like there’s this bit of a double standard because like companies are like, you can’t do this and then you see the, the, you know, the CEOs and whatever, who were like, yeah, you just donated millions of dollars to like, whatever, you know, like thing, how’s it okay for you?

Um, but, um, you know, that’s a whole other topic as well, but I, but I think it’s, you know,

Erin Mikail Staples: both ways, right? Like,

Brian Rinaldi: yeah,

Erin Mikail Staples: there’s, I’ve also seen Deverell’s. Who, we’ve all seen it, when someone gets laid off from their [00:29:00] job, guess what, you are 20 times more visible if you’re in that dev rel and you’ve been that face the entire time.

Yep, that is true. And we’ve seen it be like, fire off on Twitter and even like we’ve gone around and deleted or people who’ve said something and you’re just like, whoa, trash opinion, dude, and that rel career. Like, I have had, um, there is someone that You know, uh, I know that we actively, Brian and I had a conversation with, and we were just like, whoa, we’re, we are watching a fire burn.

And we were just like, and then, and then it was some, and they had the, they turned around and asked us for a job. And I was like,

I have no, no comments because it’s like, I don’t know what to do at that point, but it’s, it goes both ways. And the world is so small that you don’t know, like people talk. And I think that’s the thing is companies want. And like the reason you hired Deverell is in some ways is to get access to the back channel.

Right. Yeah. But that back channel is a double edged sword [00:30:00] and it can be used in really great ways. Like, I have definitely sent it. I’ve loved the old folks to death, but sometimes I had to be like, dude, can you please get off? You’re being super, super, super, super cringe. Stop. Um, and that’s usually the most of the time it happens.

But, uh, yeah, it’s weird. Hey, Wesley. Yeah. Great to have you. I’m not even going to lie. Like we know the most people. So we’re probably the most gossipy.

Brian Rinaldi: I think Wesley, Wesley knows this, Wesley knows this probably because I, I know he, he was involved in politics if I recall, or like in, in, um, in and around, uh, Austin, if I, if I recall correctly, Wesley. So maybe you feel this actually personally, um, you know, having, having that kind of. Follow you. It can be good.

It can be bad. I mean, I guess it depends. I personally, I’m in a, I’m in a place in my career where [00:31:00] thankfully I can feel like, you know what, if you feel like you look at some of the stuff and you see my, you know, my personal feelings or political leanings or whatever, and I don’t get the job, it probably wasn’t a good fit anyway.

Kelly Vaughn: That’s exactly the way I take it. I wouldn’t have enjoyed working here, working for you anyway.

Brian Rinaldi: Yes. So Wesley did, he ran for Austin city council in 2016. Yeah. So, but, um, yeah, but, uh, but I also feel like, look, I know people right now who have been, were super talented who’ve been looking for months and months.

Right. Like, and there’s just not a lot out there. And at that point, like, and if you aren’t, you know, don’t have the ability to kind of go along without a job. Like it may start, it may be something that you’re like, Oh, you know, that this is hurting me and I can’t undo it necessarily. Um, and, and I, you know, maybe I would be willing to take that job, even if it was a bad fit.[00:32:00]

Kelly Vaughn: If you need the job, like, it’s a place of, it’s a place of privilege to be able to say, I am going to turn down this opportunity, or I don’t want to work at this company, even though they want me because I won’t like them.

Erin Mikail Staples: Yeah, and I mean, like, we’re all white presenting, cis presenting individuals, like, that’s, we’re dealing with a lot of levers, layers and levers of intersectionality that are afforded to us, and I think that’s.

Something that we can’t negate, and that’s something, I mean, I have seen it among trans friends of mine, specifically, and like, where it’s, things have happened, and it’s, how dare, like, I, I had to bite my tongue recently because it was how dare this job application ask for my pronouns and I’m like, okay, like, I’m like, breathe, deep breathe, deep breathe.

If you’re going to throw this much of a stink about it again, goes both ways. Is that something that people want to happen? And that’s, again, it’s culture. I don’t, [00:33:00] everybody’s like, oh, culture happens. By what you do, and there’s a really great article. Um, that’s like we don’t do that here And I think culture is equally by what you police and what you enforce and what you don’t So if you have your c suite doing something that I see Would not be allowed to do at your organization.

Like I think that’s a good internal gut check engage and I Know for a fact that I have seen my way out of interviews that have gone that way. Um, and It’s amazing when you start asking those questions, because I always ask, how do I handle a situation if I actually don’t agree with the company as a DevRel?

That’s a question I always ask in interviews, and I bring it to the surface. I’m like my portfolio does have political work in it. What is your interaction so that I do actively volunteer for political organizations and nine times out of 10, they’re fine. But then, you know, the other times it’s usually I’ve had some other red flag, even before that question, shout out to the company that once told me they needed a Deverell that was a woman because they needed someone to make pretty little YouTube videos.[00:34:00]

Kelly Vaughn: I really wish you can put them on full blast right now, but it’s fine.

Erin Mikail Staples: I wish I could actually remember their name, to be totally honest, but I don’t even

Kelly Vaughn: remember their name. Which, honestly, is, is like the best karma, because they’re so irrelevant that you can’t even remember their name.

Erin Mikail Staples: But, pretty little videos.

Brian Rinaldi: I’ve, yeah, I’ve seen that before, the companies that do that. You know, they’ve, but they’re usually looking for, in my experience, it never ends up working out. And it’s not just like young women or whatever that they choose. It’s just, they’re looking for influencers, you know, types who like, you know, they, they somehow think that if I hire this influencer, that that’s gonna somehow magically bring us following.

And it, it, it never, it never really works out, honestly. Um, I’ve seen it so many times and it’s just. It doesn’t because it doesn’t transfer that way, right? Like in this, in the same way, I think it’s important to note that like, [00:35:00] you know, these companies are going to look at the work that you’re doing. Um, you know, like this things you do outside of work that, you know, impact the perception of you at the same time, like it doesn’t.

It’s not like, oh, hey, everything just rubs off, right? Like, I can’t, you’re, you’re a big audience on LinkedIn or whatever, or decent anyway, as Erin says.

Erin Mikail Staples: Indecent. It’s actually indecent now that Brian brought up the fact that I follow you both, so it’s now indecent. It isn’t indecent following, you’re right.

You’re

Brian Rinaldi: indecent following. But like, um, uh, you know, it. It’s not like you can suddenly, there’s suddenly like this big transference of like, Oh, Hey, Kelly has this giant following on LinkedIn now is working at spot. ai. Now spot. ai is super famous because you know, it just doesn’t work that way. Um, you know,

Erin Mikail Staples: yes,

Brian Rinaldi: they do wish.

Erin Mikail Staples: But like we pulling from the CPG world, right back to e commerce. How many YouTubers and celebrities and TikTok famous [00:36:00] folks started brands and white labeled them during the 2020 2021 years? Yep. Most of those brands don’t exist now. Believe it or not, if you are a TikTok icon, you’re probably not really good at e commerce.

It’s not, it’s not a direct correlation.

Kelly Vaughn: There is not a direct correlation, exactly. There are some people who have done phenomenally, but most people, it requires a different kind of brain to run a brand. Whether, like, if you are selling a thing, it requires a different kind of brain. Um, a good example is, um, Popflex.

Like she has crushed it and she started with fitness videos and now she has a blog, exactly. Uh, and now she has a whole brand that, I mean, also it really helped that Taylor Swift was wearing one of her skirts in a recent video and everyone was like immediately pointed out and knew what it was. And so that also helped explode her business, which.

I’m happy for her.

Erin Mikail Staples: Or, um, Holo Taco, which was Christine. Yes. Um, I’m in her discord as an early fan and we did like a discord celebration, [00:37:00] livestream celebration when she launched in Ulta. Or, um, shout out to Aaliyah Miranda’s of, uh, can’t even remember her brand name right now. She’s gonna kill me. I’m gonna text her and be like, sugar dough.

So sugar dough, actually, this is the true TikTok story. Um, I was actually working with her husband at the time and She was making the product out of her garage and now is sold in Ulta and is in the Ulta incubator program and is the first like national sugar waxing brand started by a black woman, but her videos took off on Tik Tok, but she had the product.

Also, her husband was a founder of an e commerce company and still consults and is like way up at Shopify and does a lot of that work. So like he knew what it took to be successful and had the resources. From that e commerce background, also being married to a developer and Shopify developer, if you’re a founder is kind of nice.

That’s really helpful. It really like minor things. It’s like, I’m, I’m married to an editorial director. So thank you so much for all the times that he has edited my blogs. [00:38:00]

Kelly Vaughn: I have a friend in Michigan that, um, opened a, uh, bookstore and sandwich shop. Um, with her husband and her background is SEO marketing.

You can imagine how quickly her follower account grew and how much attention that that business got early on. And, you know, she launched an online store for it because she was, she was my SEO person for all, like all my e com brands that I work with. And so like, she’s been crushing it as well.

Brian Rinaldi: Some skills do transfer.

Kelly Vaughn: Follower

Brian Rinaldi: counts, though. Follower counts do not transfer.

Kelly Vaughn: Follower counts do not transfer, no. I have no idea how many people following are also bots, so there’s always that, too. And

Erin Mikail Staples: it’s interesting,

Brian Rinaldi: because On Twitter, maybe, yeah.

Kelly Vaughn: I might also be a bot, so

Erin Mikail Staples: I mean, we’re all in the AI world, so actually, isn’t that just us?

Like, aren’t we just all agents talking right now? Like, we’re multi agency all.

Kelly Vaughn: We’re all I don’t know how much agency I actually have right now, so

Erin Mikail Staples: I mean, that’s on Brain for Agents as well, though. [00:39:00] Fair, fair. Wait, you’re talking about

Brian Rinaldi: somebody who works at an AI company. Well, you work in an AI company.

That’s why

Kelly Vaughn: we can joke about it.

Brian Rinaldi: Okay. I can’t joke about it.

Erin Mikail Staples: I didn’t mention any product pitches. We’re good. But if you want it to get an evaluation or a video capture, jokes, jokes. Um, I think we know someone who does the local dev for AWS environments as well. But it’s maybe,

Brian Rinaldi: yeah, but that’s, that’s another minute of product pitching

Erin Mikail Staples: here.

Done. Um, that all being said is, uh, We were talking about, like, AI agents and, wow, brain, but like that follower count transition, uh, words. The thing that I find really interesting is we often use follower count to determine who is a successful one. Yep. And that’s, I personally, I think that’s the absolute worst metric.

Um, I actually had this conversation at work related to DevRel today. Um, there was a heated conversation this [00:40:00] week at work about should we launch a support forum or discord? And I said, if it’s, if it’s for support and we’re doing a good job with our product and our documentation and our support teams, do we want that discord to grow?

Kelly Vaughn: Right. That, that should be, that should instead be for. You know, third party devs that want to actually interact with the brand. Like that’s why the Shopify partners, uh, Slack and then Discord has always been so successful because it’s people wanting to learn more and it’s not people troubleshooting for the most part.

I mean, that does exist, obviously. Like, I don’t understand how this, you know, what’s going on with this, this, uh, GraphQL column trying to make, like, it’s not working. Why is it not working? Sure. But usually it’s not like actual bugs that are being reported in there. It is

Brian Rinaldi: it is hard, though, because I’m dealing with the opposite problem.

I have, we have a really large community, but they largely see are lots of slack because it’s been around for a while. But, um, or discord really kind [00:41:00] of made the transition into these kind of communities, but like. They really only see it as support, um, and we have a big open source, uh, set of user and they just, they come and you see it as support and I’m like trying, it’s not my strength, honestly, at Endeavor, like building that community part.

Um, you know, because I, I struggled like, cause it just requires so much. effort. Like community is a lot of effort. Like the people who do it, I really kind of appreciate the kind of work they do because to build that you have to kind of be consistent. It’s consistency. It’s like every day you’re trying to engage them and to come up with ways to like get them to see, um, see this as more than just a place to post my problems.

Um, and, and it’s just, it’s a lot, it’s a kind of commitment that’s Really, you can’t do part time, really. No, it is a, it is

Kelly Vaughn: a whole job. It is a whole job. That should not be one [00:42:00] of the many things that you do in, say, in like a DevRel role.

Erin Mikail Staples: And I think the other thing is, for those looking to get Endeavor, like, we’ve all seen it, we’ve all scheduled those posts, and they’re like, very clearly, chat GPT, 25 things, but B2B SaaS, blah, blah, blah.

Hashtag, hashtag,

Kelly Vaughn: hashtag.

Erin Mikail Staples: Yeah, and it’s like, I think if you’re really wanting to start any community or any tech organization wanting to start a quote unquote community, I think the first thing is like, start by replying to your LinkedIn comments. Step one, like, respond to an email with an original thought.

That’s the way to do it because I will actually respond to those like you not just like take the time and I think Kelly that’s like one thing that like we first connected is because I was like but it does actually really respond it’s a real person or why these brands are huge follower camps do take off is I mean I’m in the Holo Taco discord right now like we’re geeking out and I’m excited to go see her on live streams on Twitch like

Kelly Vaughn: yeah

Erin Mikail Staples: that’s a nail polish company yo like

Kelly Vaughn: Yeah, one of my best friends [00:43:00] also.

Every, every Saturday morning is, is, is on that live stream.

Erin Mikail Staples: Me too. Gotta obsess about it. Yeah, I know Brian is really into the, the unicorn glitter top coats.

Brian Rinaldi: Yes, I am. So I actually don’t even have Tik Tok. I’ve never had Tik Tok. So I’ve, uh, speaking of social media, and this is like, it did hinder me in my, my search for a new job was like, I’ve, I’m little by little, like removing myself as much as possible.

Um, so I was off. Twitter the day Elon took over and I haven’t been back. I deleted my account. Eventually. Um, I’ve been off Facebook since 2016 You know, you can kind of put together the dates of things Anyway and uh, I’m now off Instagram too. I’m not on Instagram anymore. I deleted that account off threads cuz I just yeah It’s, you know, I know, but again, I’m in that [00:44:00] kind of position, especially at this point in my career where I’m like, Oh, I can make that choice and it’s not going to like, I don’t, I’m, I can live.

It’s not that it’s not going to impact my, my career. It’s that I will live with the impact that it has on my career. I’m fine. You can

Kelly Vaughn: live at the impact. Exactly. Yeah. I can. Yeah.

Brian Rinaldi: Yeah.

Kelly Vaughn: Meanwhile, I haven’t deleted any of my accounts. I just don’t post because. Somebody will create an account with that same name and I do have a brand and I have to maintain that no matter, no matter what, which is a shame, but I, you know, I, there is somebody who is, um, posing as me on Tik TOK and I cannot for the life of me, get that, get that account shut down.

Brian Rinaldi: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I think like, if you keep it private, if you move things private, this still keep your username, we can’t, can’t.

Kelly Vaughn: Exactly. But I did that for

Brian Rinaldi: a bit and then I just, [00:45:00] um, you know, I had, I didn’t have, I didn’t have a decent following. Um, I had, I, I, but it was, especially on Twitter, I had the biggest following of any of the social media and, and people just still kept DMing me and everything and I never checked it.

So I was like, yeah, it just killed the count. Yeah. I don’t have, I don’t, I didn’t have enough of a following that anybody’s like, you know, was, was really going to be. Trying to impersonate me. I think we’ll see

Kelly Vaughn: I

Erin Mikail Staples: have also

Brian Rinaldi: Aaron gets ideas in their heads now She’s

Erin Mikail Staples: gonna say this is where the indecent followers come through like,

Brian Rinaldi: oh His username is available

Kelly Vaughn: There are some people who I still Will DM on Twitter because that’s where I can find them and that’s the fastest way to reach them But like my DMS are otherwise shut Like people can’t just reach out to me.

And honestly, most of the, when my DMs were open on there is just spam. All of it was spam. Somebody [00:46:00] has some crypto project for me and we’ve moved, we’ve moved past that. I did appreciate having, you know, in that peak time when, like, people were buying, like, the, the fun NFTs, I had, like, a non fungible olive garden, um, which got shut down, but it was the cost, it was, like, 29.

99, or whatever it was, that was, like, the cost of unlimited soup, salad, and breadsticks, like, it was purely just, like, it was two months of fun. And that was money well spent. Importance,

Erin Mikail Staples: like important things. And I think like, I, I chose to, it was, I asked when I was interviewing, and they were like, we are choosing to keep a presence.

We don’t like that we’re keeping a presence, but we’re choosing to keep a presence because of the industry. It’s like, I understand that even though I can grumble about it. But I really liked, um, Hank Green actually went on like a live about it and I caught it and I was like, wait, I actually really appreciated your approach because he talked about like breaking through echo chambers and if you pull up his Twitter account right now, because I refuse to call [00:47:00] it the other thing, um, he has a, basically his like bio says, I’ll actually pull it up.

It says. This account is not actively managed. It sometimes reposts from other outcourses, a, or from my blue sky, a Twitter like thing built on an open platform, giving more users, giving its users more control. And then openly was like, I don’t agree with this. I don’t do this, but it is important for other reasons that I am cross posting here.

And it also, I’m sitting here, but like, doesn’t engage, doesn’t really engage your report, which

Kelly Vaughn: I’m.

Erin Mikail Staples: That’s the, so I actually automated mine to do very much the same and it’s kind of like, don’t have the app on my phone.

Kelly Vaughn: Yeah, I don’t have the app on my phone. I like that that idea though, because I like the 1, the hardest part for me is the trade off of like.

I am also leaving money on the table. Like I’m not able to, you know, promote my course and stuff. I am able to, I’m choosing not to promote my course on Twitter, but I also get a lot of like leads from there. [00:48:00] And I get a lot of like, I am, it is a, that is a conscious choice that I am making to say like, I’m setting this money aside, knowing that just like, I cannot.

I cannot post on Twitter. Like, I just cannot bring myself to do it.

Brian Rinaldi: I had the same thing when I, when I quit Twitter, even though, like, again, my following wasn’t that huge, but it was a lot of the views on this site, which, you know, it’s not like this site to really, to be honest, the money making venture of any kind.

You know, it sustains itself, but, um, but it was where a lot of, that’s where I was getting a lot of the views. I kind of. I kind of, uh, accepted it in the sense, I don’t know if it’s right or not, but I was like, well, the Twitter that I’m talking about was the Twitter before, not the Twitter today. Yes. Um, and I don’t know that it, it may, even we, we’re still up there that my, my company, we’ve actually largely voted to like.

Get off Twitter, but we [00:49:00] haven’t officially done it yet. The company as a whole doesn’t seem to, and part of it is I’m making the case by saying like, look, there’s really no engagement there anyway. Like, we’re not getting anything because we refuse to pay them for the engagement. And then you, so you don’t get any.

So at least they’re making it a little bit easier on us to like, make that case because it’s just, um, so as this is usually the point in the show where we transition to the most important aspect, I mean, as, as we talked about, we are the number one on YouTube. Yeah. The number one show for Deverell and.

Right. And, uh, the combination of deferral and fermentation. Um, it’s really, yeah, we’re, we’re category leading in that area. I love that. So, yeah, so this is, uh, this is Erin’s, Erin’s time. This is the, the pickle fact of the, of [00:50:00] the month, I guess. We only do this once a month. So what’s our pickle fact, Erin?

Erin Mikail Staples: Um, our pickle fact actually doesn’t even involve real life fermentation.

So I’m getting really ish with this too. Um, but have you heard of the dill pickle club?

Brian Rinaldi: Which has nothing to do with

Erin Mikail Staples: dill or pickles, but it is, but

Brian Rinaldi: it’s

Erin Mikail Staples: the most influential, influential speakees, cabarets, and, uh, theaters that later became a policy house during the Chicago resident renaissance between 1917 and 1935, and housed a bunch of popular American authors, activists, and speakers.

It also has A whole variety of different breeds of ferments of reincarnations, including the Chicago Dill Pickle Club, the Dill Pickle Food Co op, where they do sell pickles, I did Google that, the Dill Pickle Press, which is one of the first early zine houses, and the Dill Pickle [00:51:00] Club of Portland, Oregon, which brands itself as an experimenting, experimental forum for critiquing contemporary culture, politics, and humanities.

There’s actually a, it originally had a lot of regular coverage by the Chicago Daily News. Um, and it is officially a non profit since 1930 of Illinois.

Brian Rinaldi: Hmm. Maybe we need a dill pickle club of DevRel that doesn’t actually have anything to do with pickles. Yeah. Unlike a DevRel ish show about DevRel that actually is partly about pickles.

Erin Mikail Staples: I could not, I did Google and try to figure out why it was called the dill pickle club. And I actually have no idea, but they really just kind of branded themselves as that. Um, but it’s hugely like a super progressive activist room. They actually did a lot of, um, they have 12 plus Pulitzer Prize members, winners, Pulitzer Prize winners who are members of the [00:52:00] Deal Pickle Club.

Kelly Vaughn: What I did learn is, as I was Googling this, as you were also reading about it, is there is a brand that created a murder mystery party. Based around the Dill Pickle Club, but it’s with 1L.

Erin Mikail Staples: I like this.

Brian Rinaldi: I also really like their, their

Erin Mikail Staples: original sign that was elevate your mind to a lower level of thinking, which feels like my type of people.

Kelly Vaughn: Yes.

Erin Mikail Staples: I was like,

Kelly Vaughn: who

Erin Mikail Staples: says about this? Like, I’m like a good time. Um, but apparently there’s like a historic landmark in Chicago. Um, next time I’m in Chicago, I have to learn and hang out there. Yeah. But, uh, the original location has been shut down because apparently the building’s been condemned or something.

I read that too. Listening

Kelly Vaughn: is.

Brian Rinaldi: Yeah, you know, you’ve talked about, you’ve talked to Erin about your travels around pickles and fermentation. I was like, you, you could start, here’s the side business, you just like doing [00:53:00] pickle, like fermentation related tourism, you know, cause you’re always like, Oh, I’m going to go there and see this.

Erin Mikail Staples: I’m, yeah, this is actually the new, this is, forget going into politics after. My career in tech. I’m going to just go and be a pickle tourister. Pickle, pickle tour guide.

Brian Rinaldi: Dill tourism. Something you

Erin Mikail Staples: can write off on my pickling supplies. I literally have dill growing in my windowsill right here. I love that.

I wish I was kidding.

Kelly Vaughn: Probably. It’s a business expense. It’s a business expense. It’s research, so you know how to better.

Erin Mikail Staples: It’s a podcast. Why haven’t I written this off earlier? That is a good point. Brian, you have a pickle podcast? I’m hosting the number one pickle podcast, Fermentation Endeavor podcast on YouTube.

I could write off any pickles I buy. Oh, this one.

Brian Rinaldi: First you need to make money off of this to call it business.

Kelly Vaughn: So I have one more comment to make about the Dill Pickle Club. Um [00:54:00] I was reading that the doors, uh, there was an orange door that was inscribed with the words, step high, stoop low, leave your dignity outside.

And I’m like, I’m here.

Erin Mikail Staples: So if you can’t find Paulie and I, we’re currently getting the renaissance of the dill pickle club.

Kelly Vaughn: Yeah. Almost 100 years later, a little over a hundred years later. Let’s do it.

Brian Rinaldi: It sounds great to me. I mean, and it actually fits the vibe of the show. In a way.

Erin Mikail Staples: I also am reading that they, the admission, the only thing they made money from was refreshments, and they plagiarized books and republished them to make money.

I’m like, these are kind of cool. They didn’t make any money on the actual club. Fear and the copyright infringement.

Kelly Vaughn: This is such an interesting article. You need to read, I need, I need to sit down and actually read this in full. Um, Erin, I’m texting it to you [00:55:00] have it as well. I

Erin Mikail Staples: was going to say, I know. By googling this morning when I was looking for pickle facts, it’s great.

Kelly Vaughn: This is a very long article, but there’s like a lot of really good, uh, photos in there as well.

Brian Rinaldi: You should post it in the chat, the, for the I,

Kelly Vaughn: I sent it to Erin on text, so she can, you can, you can send it over, because I don’t, I’m not signed in. Yeah,

Erin Mikail Staples: Paige, I think you

Brian Rinaldi: can drop it. Emmett, Emmett, if you have, if, you know, we can partner up, because I am not, like, this is literally This is what I do.

This is what I do. I make businesses that don’t make money. Um, so, I was going to say, Ethan

Erin Mikail Staples: would be another good invite to the Pickle Club. Ethan and I have shared it. Um, low calorie lager. Yeah. This is helping. Great. Amazing. Love.

Important stuff here, man. This is important work we’re doing.

Brian Rinaldi: I told you. This is why this is why we are I

Erin Mikail Staples: think there’s like

Brian Rinaldi: five

Erin Mikail Staples: businesses [00:56:00] here. Devereux

Brian Rinaldi: ish. Devereux

Erin Mikail Staples: ish. But it’s actually payment in pickles, or pickle puns.

Brian Rinaldi: All right, so we’re reaching the top of the hour. I know we could talk about pickles for a really, really long time, or at least Erin can.

Um,

Erin Mikail Staples: starting the next business.

Brian Rinaldi: Yeah, I, you know, I think, well, you already have all the fermentation stuff, so you’re ready. You’re ready to go.

Erin Mikail Staples: Ready to go.

Brian Rinaldi: Yeah, I mean, you could start the Dill Pickle Club and actually have it have something to do with pickles. Yeah, Dill Pickle Club of New York City.

Kelly Vaughn: But, but only serve pickles that are not dill.

Brian Rinaldi: Yes. Except dill pickles are the best. Oh, I know. There’s like a secret, there’s

Kelly Vaughn: like a secret, like, password or something that you have to say, which is actually that, that slogan that I mentioned that’s inscribed on the door.

Erin Mikail Staples: We’re gonna counterfeit some stuff. I gotta figure out what we’re gonna counterfeit.

Kelly Vaughn: I’ll, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll help you brainstorm this one. [00:57:00] Perfect. That’s great. We’re in.

Brian Rinaldi: I think, I think, I think the AI can help you do with that one.

Kelly Vaughn: Oh, you’re, that’s a good point. Pickle AI. Pickle AI. Just keep on asking chat GBT to generate an image just like more pickles, more pickles. Expand the fermentation.

Let’s see what happens.

Brian Rinaldi: Then we can get Will Ferrell to like, be holding a pickle and like, more pickle. Okay. All right. This conversation has really gone off the rails, but Let’s wrap

Erin Mikail Staples: this, let’s put a lid on the pickle jar.

Brian Rinaldi: It’s a

Erin Mikail Staples: great tagline, isn’t it? Isn’t it great? Yeah.

Brian Rinaldi: Yes. Yep. I love it. Ethan’s in

Erin Mikail Staples: Reno right now, so Ethan gets it.

Ethan gets it.

Brian Rinaldi: But that’s what we’re here for. We’re here to inspire people, not about DevRel apparently, but all about Pickles. Because all of a sudden the chat just

Kelly Vaughn: poofed

Brian Rinaldi: when we talked about Pickles.

Kelly Vaughn: It’s amazing how that works.

Brian Rinaldi: Alright y’all, well, uh, [00:58:00] we are at the top of the hour, um, Aaron, it was great as always to co host with you and Kelly.

It was awesome to have you on the show, um, and chat about mostly the ish part of Debra and politics and pickles and, uh, social media and all that stuff. It was great. So thanks for being here.

Kelly Vaughn: Um,

Brian Rinaldi: and thank you to everybody who was here watching. It’s been fun to chat with you all, um, and talk about PayPals and everything else.

Um, we will be back next month. We haven’t set a date yet, so follow cfe. dev to. keep up with the next with the next dev rel dev relish show. Um, we’ve also got, uh, two full two stack, which is coming up in a couple of weeks or is it next week? I think it’s next week. Um, which is, is another show that we run.

That’s, uh, all like a coat front end code focused. And then we’ve got, uh, Ray Camden does his code break show as well, which is coming up. So you [00:59:00] can keep up with all those shows as well. Everything else we do on that site. We being me and well and Aaron and Ray and Nick.

Erin Mikail Staples: I’m into the shenanigans, shenanigans.

Yeah, it’s much better than open source.

Brian Rinaldi: So, uh, yeah, we’ll see you next month. Bye.